Agreed in whole, but I think you a little too hard on Shapiro. I don't follow/read/listen to him except what impinges the media bandwagon, but I suspect he was not expecting the question, and extemporaneous answers are much more difficult, even (maybe especially?) for the loud-mouthed, than extemporaneous questions.
Otoh, one *would* expect a better answer. After all, as my Jewish friends tell this Atheist, they sure get tired of being asked about their views on the most famous* Jewish reformer of all.
* and successful, considering the billions of Christians, and only 16 million Jewish folk.
Truly brilliant analysis full of insight and compelling arguments about the relationship of Jesus and the Jewish leadership that engineered having him crucified. I attended Catholic school 1-12 and also received an MBA from a Catholic university; your analysis is consistent with how my education and ongoing Catholic practice teaches it. That you were able to explain it so concisely and thoroughly could have saved me at least two semesters of religious classes.
Regarding Shapiro and nearly every Zionist, they can’t accept the core of Jesus’s role and relationship to them because it dismantles their history and two thousand year mistake of having rejected Christ. I feel sorry for them because I do believe in the beauty of an eternal Heaven and the horror of an eternal Hell. Life on earth is temporal and infinitesimal compared to Heaven and Hell. Hedge accordingly.
Trailing in here late again (it’s a time zone thing) just to make a few quick points.
Excellent piece, yet again. I don’t read people’s work only to find points of agreement, but naturally, there will be those times. In this case, relative to yet another potentially difficult topic, I found Lillia’s and many of the other comments to be very astute, particularly relative to the spiritual aspects and their context.
I only want to add one thing. I don’t know Ben Shapiro from Adam (old testament joke), but I am liking what the Daily Wire, of which he is a part, is doing relative to two things of importance:
1) Movies and Streaming Services - From The Daily Wire site: "We’re one of America’s fastest-growing media companies and counter-cultural outlets for news, opinion, and entertainment.”
2) Censorship - From the Federalist site: "State Of Texas Joins The Federalist, Daily Wire In Suing The Federal Censorship-Industrial Complex” by Joy Pullmann
The Daily Wire is not a bad outlet. I subscribed for a while. What I'm watching is the Candace Owens/Ben Shapiro feud and how that is "resolved." Is Candace allowed to keep voicing her opinions even though they diverge sharply from Ben Shapiro's and Ben Shapiro is an owner? That's the true test of whether you're for free speech and free exchange of ideas or just for your own free speech and the one-way street of your own ideas.
That's a pretty solid analysis – a most enjoyable read.
I've never been a big fan of Ben, nor of the musical, "Jesus Christ, Superstar", nor most musicals, for that matter.
"He was a religious revolutionary."
This is an easy conclusion to draw, and I won't say it's incorrect, only not quite entirely correct. The case can be made, given that the nation of Israel (even when dispersed or enslaved by the Egyptians and Babylonians) is a theocracy – but I would submit that Jesus, more than anything else, was the Son of God who both lived and taught that which was CULTURALLY revolutionary.
There is A LOT that the musical gets completely wrong (there is not near sufficient time or space for it here).
"Jesus was, in fact, no threat to the Romans. According to Christian theology, he was something of a disappointment to fellow Jews because his message was not one of liberation from Roman rule."
This 100% correct. The Messiah that the Jews of Jesus' day were expecting was a military leader who would crush the Romans under his feet.
"His goal was not to free a people politically but to free individuals spiritually."
Again, not incorrect, just not entirely correct. "Spiritually" is a rather ambiguous term. The freedom Christ teaches of is freedom from the consequences of sin through Christ – the way, the truth, and the life – I'm over-simplifying (but not by much) for the purposes of class discussion.
"...the Jewish religious leadership at the time were the ones that were afraid of Jesus, not the Romans."
Indeed – couldn't have said it better, myself.
"If the way to 'heaven' was not through supporting their hierarchy and following all their rules but simply living a good life and taking care of each other,"
Again...sorry to sound like a broken record (any idea how few people will soon understand that metaphor?), but the Good News that Jesus preaches is not ONLY that following the Law of Moses is all but impossible, AND that it is all but useless for effecting the forgiveness of sins, but that all one need do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and keeping two of the ten commandments:
1. Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.
The remaining eight commandments of the Mosaic Law hang on these two.
Since we, as flawed creatures are bound to fall short, Christ's sacrifice through death on the cross offers us blanket forgiveness if we only confess our sin, and repent – and even then, our repentance will be imperfect, we'll fall short, but Christ's death on the cross offers us blanket forgiveness if we only confess our sin, and repent. Rinse, and repeat – it's impossible to exhaust God's love in this way.
There are parts of the Christian faith as practiced in the West that are NOT incompatible with or even exclusive of Zen philosophy – that's one of them.
"All we can really control is ourselves, and sometimes that has to be enough."
I was curious as to your reaction because of your perspective. I'm happy that despite our differences when it comes to Christianity, you still seemed to appreciate the piece. That's a deep compliment.
The truth of The Good News has not changed in more than 2,000 years. It is remarkably simple.
I can appreciate landing near the target, and getting there later. Far too many expect the target to be hit dead-center, the first time. Hell, even guys like CS Lewis (a true intellectual giant), Jonathan Edwards (he of, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" fame, and a personal hero), Martin Luther, and even the apostle Paul, were mere men no less sinful than anyone else, and most of THEIR writings, as excellent as they are, are still wide of the mark to one degree or another.
Some things seem to stay the same, like the theft (i.e. re-definition) of words like liberal, liberate, freedom, progress, and Capitalism by the Statists (i.e. Leftists) of the day.
"'The Eleventh Edition is the definitive edition,' he said. 1'We're getting the language into its final shape -- the shape it's going to have when nobody speaks anything else. 1When we've finished with it, people like you will have to learn it all over again. You think, I dare say, that our chief job is inventing new words. But not a bit of it! We're destroying words -- scores of them, hundreds of them, every day. We're cutting the language down to the bone. 1The Eleventh Edition won't contain a single word that will become obsolete before the year 2050.'"
One might compare the early Christians to the Native American Ghost Dancers, a transcendent cult that grew out of its utter political and military defeat at the hands of an earthly empire, that turned that defeat on its head by welcoming a terrestrial death on the way to an eternity the empire could never dominate. Or not. In general, I’ve given up on the historical “truths” of Jesus and Co., on who did what to whom. As a Baptist minister once told me, the atheists have their story, we have ours, and ours is just a better story. So I do still sometimes cover the bases with a quick prayer. You can’t be too careful about heaven, hell, and eternity.
I like your comparison to Ghost Dancers. And agree that our story is better than an Atheist, especially since we have to make ours coherent and compelling and the latter just needs to deny all the wonders of the world are divine.
Thank you. And it’s hard to argue with the notion that the story at the heart of Christianity, underneath all the layers of dogma added centuries later, is a thing of pure beauty. And it’s hard to argue that the Corinthians letters are anything but one of the most lovely and poetic achievements in religious history. Islam from its origins was fundamentally different in mingling temporal and spiritual notions of power. And when that temporal power was so thoroughly humbled in the last two centuries, it set up the inevitable backlash we’ve been witnessing. I don’t blame them, but we need to play in our separate sandboxes until they recover their collective sense of self-worth.
"one that would condemn a person for working on Sunday or stone a woman for making a living the one way she knew how or condemn a poor widow for not giving enough"
They aren't so cool on Shrimp Cocktail, Beef Stroganoff, and Poly-Cotton blends either.
And you wouldn't believe how strongly they feel about tattoos and touching someone's doodads whose doodads are just like your doodads. Yahweh says, "Double Plus Uncool."
- Leviticus, multiple. Not verbatim, don't quote me on these.
Well, I’m not a fan of Ben Shapiro, he makes many salient points from his interpretation of his orthodox beliefs. While we may not agree with them, and can disagree for many reasons, it is not for us to impart judgment on him, or others, who have similar beliefs. On the other hand, if Jesus was alive today, he would be aghast that his words and his beliefs have been corrupted In so many ways. He probably would be fighting against organized religion, and the Catholic Church, in particular, who have bastardized many aspects of his message. Rather than protect the poor, unwashed, alien, orphans, and strangers, the church along with other religious institutions have become profiteers. It is difficult to understand what to interpret, as being correct or not, since there is a great deal of differences between the contemporary writing of Jesus time on earth, and the revision in King James Bible written in the 11th century. The central message of salvation and faith seem to be the Consistent core messages that unfortunately are not being understood by many who are amongst us. In terms of damnation and the nine levels of hell, I guess all of us will find out one day where we fit in. Unfortunately, we will not be able to report back to the remaining mortals, which was the correct path to follow.
The Catholic Church has a lot of faults but it is highly inaccurate to cast the entire Catholic Church as doing no good. Further, there is not an organization or religion in the world that doesn’t have just as much or more as bad history.
Catholicism is a beautiful religion with beautiful people, yet, the organized church has many issues that at times are anti Christian. Apologies if my comment was offensive.
Hey Mark, I agree the Catholic Church has many issues and that it is also a beautiful religion. No offense taken and thank-you for the follow-up. Lillia has fostered a robust group of readers that are thoughtful and civil; as you demonstrate.
My parents took me to see Godspell - whose big song from the day, back in the 1900s, was 'Jesus Chris Superstar,' when I was in 3rd Grade as my "present" for taking for taking the sacrament of First Holy Communion. (I am Confirmed as well but identify as 'recovering Catholic').
While I have little interest in the religious part, I do love music and can still sing "Day by Day" to this day: "To see the more clearly... Love thee more dearly ... Follow thee more nearly oooh Day by Day!"
It is a very well done musical and has stood the test of time. 50 years test of time. I have seen in 5 times (unlike my sisters 4 times). It seems to be a bit more modern now (that kind of irritated me) but so be it the message and music is the same! If you get to see it you should. You don’t have to be a Christian to understand or appreciate the message or the music!
I like musicals and don't mind modern or new takes. Some turn out to be great in their own right like The Lion King (Hamlet) and West Side Story (Romeo and Juliet).
But I'll see if it's going to be 'round these parts anytime.
"Showing people how to be free in their minds even if they were not physically or politically free and showing people how not to be afraid of dying, those were his goals."
Howdy! Yeah, sorry. This is a real community and I was worried caused a little worry. Had an unexpected then a planned high-effort tasks come up at work last week that ran through the weekend.
Agreed in whole, but I think you a little too hard on Shapiro. I don't follow/read/listen to him except what impinges the media bandwagon, but I suspect he was not expecting the question, and extemporaneous answers are much more difficult, even (maybe especially?) for the loud-mouthed, than extemporaneous questions.
You have a point about perhaps not expecting the question.
Otoh, one *would* expect a better answer. After all, as my Jewish friends tell this Atheist, they sure get tired of being asked about their views on the most famous* Jewish reformer of all.
* and successful, considering the billions of Christians, and only 16 million Jewish folk.
Ha! Or, *un*-successful, considering the same.
(Centuries later, Martin Luther sort of did to the secretive overseers of Christianity what the Jewish "superstar" did to Judaism.)
I got my footnote *and* my parenthetical in!
And that's quite the feat!
Ar, ar!
Truly brilliant analysis full of insight and compelling arguments about the relationship of Jesus and the Jewish leadership that engineered having him crucified. I attended Catholic school 1-12 and also received an MBA from a Catholic university; your analysis is consistent with how my education and ongoing Catholic practice teaches it. That you were able to explain it so concisely and thoroughly could have saved me at least two semesters of religious classes.
Regarding Shapiro and nearly every Zionist, they can’t accept the core of Jesus’s role and relationship to them because it dismantles their history and two thousand year mistake of having rejected Christ. I feel sorry for them because I do believe in the beauty of an eternal Heaven and the horror of an eternal Hell. Life on earth is temporal and infinitesimal compared to Heaven and Hell. Hedge accordingly.
Trailing in here late again (it’s a time zone thing) just to make a few quick points.
Excellent piece, yet again. I don’t read people’s work only to find points of agreement, but naturally, there will be those times. In this case, relative to yet another potentially difficult topic, I found Lillia’s and many of the other comments to be very astute, particularly relative to the spiritual aspects and their context.
I only want to add one thing. I don’t know Ben Shapiro from Adam (old testament joke), but I am liking what the Daily Wire, of which he is a part, is doing relative to two things of importance:
1) Movies and Streaming Services - From The Daily Wire site: "We’re one of America’s fastest-growing media companies and counter-cultural outlets for news, opinion, and entertainment.”
2) Censorship - From the Federalist site: "State Of Texas Joins The Federalist, Daily Wire In Suing The Federal Censorship-Industrial Complex” by Joy Pullmann
The Daily Wire is not a bad outlet. I subscribed for a while. What I'm watching is the Candace Owens/Ben Shapiro feud and how that is "resolved." Is Candace allowed to keep voicing her opinions even though they diverge sharply from Ben Shapiro's and Ben Shapiro is an owner? That's the true test of whether you're for free speech and free exchange of ideas or just for your own free speech and the one-way street of your own ideas.
That's a pretty solid analysis – a most enjoyable read.
I've never been a big fan of Ben, nor of the musical, "Jesus Christ, Superstar", nor most musicals, for that matter.
"He was a religious revolutionary."
This is an easy conclusion to draw, and I won't say it's incorrect, only not quite entirely correct. The case can be made, given that the nation of Israel (even when dispersed or enslaved by the Egyptians and Babylonians) is a theocracy – but I would submit that Jesus, more than anything else, was the Son of God who both lived and taught that which was CULTURALLY revolutionary.
There is A LOT that the musical gets completely wrong (there is not near sufficient time or space for it here).
"Jesus was, in fact, no threat to the Romans. According to Christian theology, he was something of a disappointment to fellow Jews because his message was not one of liberation from Roman rule."
This 100% correct. The Messiah that the Jews of Jesus' day were expecting was a military leader who would crush the Romans under his feet.
"His goal was not to free a people politically but to free individuals spiritually."
Again, not incorrect, just not entirely correct. "Spiritually" is a rather ambiguous term. The freedom Christ teaches of is freedom from the consequences of sin through Christ – the way, the truth, and the life – I'm over-simplifying (but not by much) for the purposes of class discussion.
"...the Jewish religious leadership at the time were the ones that were afraid of Jesus, not the Romans."
Indeed – couldn't have said it better, myself.
"If the way to 'heaven' was not through supporting their hierarchy and following all their rules but simply living a good life and taking care of each other,"
Again...sorry to sound like a broken record (any idea how few people will soon understand that metaphor?), but the Good News that Jesus preaches is not ONLY that following the Law of Moses is all but impossible, AND that it is all but useless for effecting the forgiveness of sins, but that all one need do is believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and keeping two of the ten commandments:
1. Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.
The remaining eight commandments of the Mosaic Law hang on these two.
Since we, as flawed creatures are bound to fall short, Christ's sacrifice through death on the cross offers us blanket forgiveness if we only confess our sin, and repent – and even then, our repentance will be imperfect, we'll fall short, but Christ's death on the cross offers us blanket forgiveness if we only confess our sin, and repent. Rinse, and repeat – it's impossible to exhaust God's love in this way.
There are parts of the Christian faith as practiced in the West that are NOT incompatible with or even exclusive of Zen philosophy – that's one of them.
"All we can really control is ourselves, and sometimes that has to be enough."
Not sometimes – ALWAYS.
Great piece, Lillia!
I was curious as to your reaction because of your perspective. I'm happy that despite our differences when it comes to Christianity, you still seemed to appreciate the piece. That's a deep compliment.
Thank you! It makes me glad you feel thusly.
The truth of The Good News has not changed in more than 2,000 years. It is remarkably simple.
I can appreciate landing near the target, and getting there later. Far too many expect the target to be hit dead-center, the first time. Hell, even guys like CS Lewis (a true intellectual giant), Jonathan Edwards (he of, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" fame, and a personal hero), Martin Luther, and even the apostle Paul, were mere men no less sinful than anyone else, and most of THEIR writings, as excellent as they are, are still wide of the mark to one degree or another.
Gawd, I love you guys. :)
May I share this totally tangential citation and comment? (You always rile me up, Lillia!)
https://americanmind.org/salvo/get-whitey/
I heard an incite recently:
Hitler accused Jews of *not* being white. Today's Nazis (the rump Left) make "white-ness" the Jewish damnation.
The times change, the "rules" might as well, but the basic illnesses of humanity don't.
Some things seem to stay the same, like the theft (i.e. re-definition) of words like liberal, liberate, freedom, progress, and Capitalism by the Statists (i.e. Leftists) of the day.
"theft (i.e. re-definition) of words"
"'The Eleventh Edition is the definitive edition,' he said. 1'We're getting the language into its final shape -- the shape it's going to have when nobody speaks anything else. 1When we've finished with it, people like you will have to learn it all over again. You think, I dare say, that our chief job is inventing new words. But not a bit of it! We're destroying words -- scores of them, hundreds of them, every day. We're cutting the language down to the bone. 1The Eleventh Edition won't contain a single word that will become obsolete before the year 2050.'"
- Winston's friend Syme, 1984 by George Orwell
So a propos, Pi!
And note how Orwell nails the abuse of Occam's razor.
The Left (today's Democrat Party) *uses* all issues to advance and expand public power.
One might compare the early Christians to the Native American Ghost Dancers, a transcendent cult that grew out of its utter political and military defeat at the hands of an earthly empire, that turned that defeat on its head by welcoming a terrestrial death on the way to an eternity the empire could never dominate. Or not. In general, I’ve given up on the historical “truths” of Jesus and Co., on who did what to whom. As a Baptist minister once told me, the atheists have their story, we have ours, and ours is just a better story. So I do still sometimes cover the bases with a quick prayer. You can’t be too careful about heaven, hell, and eternity.
I like your comparison to Ghost Dancers. And agree that our story is better than an Atheist, especially since we have to make ours coherent and compelling and the latter just needs to deny all the wonders of the world are divine.
Thank you. And it’s hard to argue with the notion that the story at the heart of Christianity, underneath all the layers of dogma added centuries later, is a thing of pure beauty. And it’s hard to argue that the Corinthians letters are anything but one of the most lovely and poetic achievements in religious history. Islam from its origins was fundamentally different in mingling temporal and spiritual notions of power. And when that temporal power was so thoroughly humbled in the last two centuries, it set up the inevitable backlash we’ve been witnessing. I don’t blame them, but we need to play in our separate sandboxes until they recover their collective sense of self-worth.
"one that would condemn a person for working on Sunday or stone a woman for making a living the one way she knew how or condemn a poor widow for not giving enough"
They aren't so cool on Shrimp Cocktail, Beef Stroganoff, and Poly-Cotton blends either.
And you wouldn't believe how strongly they feel about tattoos and touching someone's doodads whose doodads are just like your doodads. Yahweh says, "Double Plus Uncool."
- Leviticus, multiple. Not verbatim, don't quote me on these.
It might help to remember that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and that the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
When Christ said that He came to complete the Law (of Moses), the meaning is that He came to end it – which He did.
I really appreciate your insights.
Well, I’m not a fan of Ben Shapiro, he makes many salient points from his interpretation of his orthodox beliefs. While we may not agree with them, and can disagree for many reasons, it is not for us to impart judgment on him, or others, who have similar beliefs. On the other hand, if Jesus was alive today, he would be aghast that his words and his beliefs have been corrupted In so many ways. He probably would be fighting against organized religion, and the Catholic Church, in particular, who have bastardized many aspects of his message. Rather than protect the poor, unwashed, alien, orphans, and strangers, the church along with other religious institutions have become profiteers. It is difficult to understand what to interpret, as being correct or not, since there is a great deal of differences between the contemporary writing of Jesus time on earth, and the revision in King James Bible written in the 11th century. The central message of salvation and faith seem to be the Consistent core messages that unfortunately are not being understood by many who are amongst us. In terms of damnation and the nine levels of hell, I guess all of us will find out one day where we fit in. Unfortunately, we will not be able to report back to the remaining mortals, which was the correct path to follow.
The Catholic Church has a lot of faults but it is highly inaccurate to cast the entire Catholic Church as doing no good. Further, there is not an organization or religion in the world that doesn’t have just as much or more as bad history.
Catholicism is a beautiful religion with beautiful people, yet, the organized church has many issues that at times are anti Christian. Apologies if my comment was offensive.
Hey Mark, I agree the Catholic Church has many issues and that it is also a beautiful religion. No offense taken and thank-you for the follow-up. Lillia has fostered a robust group of readers that are thoughtful and civil; as you demonstrate.
"And that’s where Christ’s message of internal peace through integrity and compassion is important, even for the “lapsed” like I."
Endorsed
"The elites are always desperate to crush anyone who threatens their power."
"I am Spartacus!"
https://youtu.be/q7vtWB4owdE?si=K4PM1Ozt8U6gYoF1
Be Legend.
"*I* am Spartacus!"
*doffs gloves right on the freakin ice*
*glowers*
*smiles, dons gloves again*
*fist bump*
"In short, love thy neighbor as thyself."
Um... <radio edit>
"Jesus Christ Superstar"
My parents took me to see Godspell - whose big song from the day, back in the 1900s, was 'Jesus Chris Superstar,' when I was in 3rd Grade as my "present" for taking for taking the sacrament of First Holy Communion. (I am Confirmed as well but identify as 'recovering Catholic').
While I have little interest in the religious part, I do love music and can still sing "Day by Day" to this day: "To see the more clearly... Love thee more dearly ... Follow thee more nearly oooh Day by Day!"
I think I'd like JCS as well.
It is a very well done musical and has stood the test of time. 50 years test of time. I have seen in 5 times (unlike my sisters 4 times). It seems to be a bit more modern now (that kind of irritated me) but so be it the message and music is the same! If you get to see it you should. You don’t have to be a Christian to understand or appreciate the message or the music!
I like musicals and don't mind modern or new takes. Some turn out to be great in their own right like The Lion King (Hamlet) and West Side Story (Romeo and Juliet).
But I'll see if it's going to be 'round these parts anytime.
"Showing people how to be free in their minds even if they were not physically or politically free and showing people how not to be afraid of dying, those were his goals."
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/cfaaea7f-f494-4321-90fe-df79c4e2fce0
It's good advice, even for the more secular amongst us.
"To state the obvious, his message, had it spread, would have resulted in a population less likely to revolt"
“Die Religion… ist das Opium des Volkes”
It's not really better in the Original German either.
It helps me to speak it aloud, and with an accent...
*repeats in Siegfried voice*
Huh. You're right.
I suddenly have the urge for a schnitzel...
"Jesus Christ Superstar (1973) - What's the Buzz Scene (2/10)"
https://tinyurl.com/y8szue8w
I... I just couldn't help myself. Lord, I apolo...
-- right, Sorry. (h/t unTex)
Whole scene from "Dogma"
https://youtu.be/6FigprdcBGA?si=4n8t_fLyb7LczICw
High Five!!
*fist bump*
"Ben Shapiro dog"
Henceforth I shall divide all dogs into two groups: "Ben Shapiro Dogs" and "Real Dogs"
There you are. I've been hoping everything is okay.
Howdy! Yeah, sorry. This is a real community and I was worried caused a little worry. Had an unexpected then a planned high-effort tasks come up at work last week that ran through the weekend.
*waves* Hi, Lil!